"RVLution 2.0": We want your suggestions and ideas

[Ninjifox]

So... this is something I've been considering for a while and am now getting round to writing on the way home.


We've admittedly messed up the running of this site a bit. RVLution is nowhere near as good a NSMBW hacking community as it could be. We tried to make a generic game hacking site, and it didn't really work out... and instead of refocusing it on NSMBW, we just rested on our laurels. There are two forum sections which are totally empty after this site running for two and a half years- that's pretty pathetic IMO! And I think we've entirely screwed up moderation of the site in general, especially the Depot.

Part of the reason for this is that every moderator has been either inactive, or really busy working on Newer since the site launched. As we're now wrapping up that project, I have been considering sort of "rebooting" RVLution as a community focused on Riivolution and NSMBW hacking, since it barely gets activity for anything else.

But I'm not totally decided on what to do to further the site, which is where this thread comes in. We'd like to hear your opinions on a variety of issues and things we've been thinking about!

There are three main options I'm considering for the site... If not everything here is clear, I'll explain it afterwards in this post.

1. Keep it as it is now, but reorganise the forum structure, fix some issues with the Depot (like the rating system and other stuff I'll mention later in this post) and do what we can to clean up existing threads, comments, etc.

2. Keep the current content as with option 1, but port the forum over to another system (I am currently considering using AcmlmBoard XD -- I'd personally prefer to use something custom, but writing a capable system would take quite some time), and transfer all existing accounts, posts, Depot uploads and so on.

3. Start over anew with new software, and keep the old forums and Depot around as read-only archives.


I'll tackle each issue raised here separatelyy...

Forum Structure
I talked a little bit about this at the start, but the current sections only have one board for NSMBW hacking, which is pretty much the only thing discussed on this site.
I would likely change the structure around to have roughly the following sections:

• General/off-topic discussion
• General game hacking (including Riivolution)
• "Meta board" dedicated to discussion of the site
• NSMBW: Hack projects
• NSMBW: Sharing of individual levels, tilesets, etc
• NSMBW: Tutorials
• NSMBW: Help and questions

This is pretty much entirely open to change.


Forum Software
We currently use phpBB for the forum, and my own home-grown software for the Depot, which is hackily integrated into the forum's user database.

I am not a fan of it at all - it's a bloated mess, a pain to administrate and moderate (for example, it is almost impossible to search for duplicate accounts because there is no search field for the registration IP address even though this info is viewable for individual users) and very spambot-friendly. In a bad way.

As with most things in this post, this bit isn't set in stone, but I am currently considering switching to AcmlmBoard XD, a fairly flexible open-source system maintained by Dirbaio (the person currently responsible for the NSMB DS editor). That'd be pretty useful if we end up having problems with anything :p


Depot
Oh, the Depot. Where do I even begin..

This is actually fairly solid software-wise, but it didn't work out like I had hoped content-wise. However, there are a few big issues- content is not very well organised, the rating system is a gigantic mess, retextures/etc are not accepted, and it's hard to moderate comments because there are thousands of submissions and no central list of new comments that can be reviewed and no reporting system.

No matter what option we end up going for, I'll try to fix these as best as possible. And if we do move over to a different forum system, I'd like to integrate the Depot into the forum instead of having it as a totally different site with a different layout and style and so on.

A couple of other things I've been considering for it are to require approval for all submissions (to ensure they meet a basic quality standard, and avoid for example crap like this ever getting through). And if we change forum software, it might be useful to change the Depot so that it uses threads with replies for comments, instead of an entirely separate comments system (why reinvent the wheel?)


Moderation
Another of the big problems with RVLution, especially on the depot. This involves a ton of things... people with duplicate accounts, spambots, trash posts, troll posts, etc. We should have started keeping track of these back in 2010 and instead we've become more and more deluged by them.

I will most likely add a way for people to Report/Flag posts, Depot submissions and Depot comments, in order to make these easier. And if we do end up starting over with the site database, it should be much more straightforward to keep these off.

Starting over is not ideal, and it's one of the biggest issues that I'm totally undecided on. But I'm not sure if it's worth the time cleaning up everything so far. All the crap submissions on the Depot, the troll comments, ancient threads, MarioWiiEditor/Mariopoo/MarioLuigi and friends his other accounts...


So yeah, I get the feeling that I've missed something but I'm not quite sure what. Either way, it's a good starting point. I'd really like to hear what you guys think! Suggestions, ideas, rants, declarations of love for me and Skawo, please share them all. RVLution has lots of potential but we haven't taken advantage of it at all, and I think we could make an awesome hacking community if we gave it some TLC, especially with the coming release of Newer and the later release of its hacks for people to use.

[Mario64]

Good job! I think people could really benefit from all these suggestions. More boards, cleaning out old threads, and other things would be good. Administrating a board is no easy thing. Believe me, you don't know what I go through each day with my forum...

Anyway, I think the board would become a lot better if you updated all of the things.

[roger]

As a person who's tried to do some porting things over in the past, I have to say I'm fine with just keeping the current stuff as an archive. Anything important that is here would get ported over pretty quickly, and the other stuff could be removed after a while.

Maybe take a look at some other Mario modding sites and see what they've done. While there aren't a many good NSMBW mods, some of the ideas from their sites might work well here.

[Shane2100AD]

I suggest option 3; and use Simple Machines. It's admin panel isn't such an PIA as phpBB's, and SMF includes a package manager making it easier to expand. (Gallery, Portals, etc).

It's also powerful to integrate. For an example, Stencyl.com uses SMF for everything, including their subscriptions.

I love the idea of an archive; good for going back in time.

[JasonP27]

I don't think trying to port the current forum to another system is best as you'll still have all the previous crap to deal with. If you do I'd say do most of the cleanup before you port it over. Be sure to backup first but I don't think I need to tell you that lol.

I am also not against starting over and keeping the old board as an archive, however some of the topics should be ported/copied over if they will still be relevant on the new board (tutorials etc). Doing this wouldn't be as simple as copy & paste if the BBCode isn't the same (i.e. PHPBB and IPBoard size codes seem to be different).

I mostly like the new forum structure you've proposed, especially considering it contains a section just for tutorials. ... however I'm wondering whether the Tutorials section should just be a sub-forum of the Help & Questions forum... either way I'm happy though.

The Depot is a steaming pile of horse crap content wise, for the most part. I think that's mostly because the users that can make a decent tileset or level are likely working on a hack and are saving all of their good stuff for themselves. I am guilty of this. I haven't added one thing to the Depot yet. I plan to when my hack is finished however. However some of the responsibility falls on the staff too. In all the time the Depot has been here, as far as I've seen, only 1 staff member, Pop006, has added anything, which was 1 tileset that wasn't good enough for Newer. Lead by example, and give others a standard of which to strive for.

Side note for Depot - Make content sortable by user as well. If it is I can't find how

Adding a report button to the Depot or post rating system kind of like YouTube (hide post if too many negative points for example) is an excellent idea, even for the main forum itself, but that would require some serious coding I think (not that you can't handle it ). I think that would help the moderation side of things just a little bit. I know I'm not the only one that thinks RVLution forums has lacked moderation... and quite often when a Mod snaps at people I think, in part, it's due to that fact.

Also, you know we love you Treeki. You (at least in part) gave us RVLution, Riivolution, Reggie!, Puzzle, and the Depot. Skawo on the other hand...



edit: and ASM hacks, LayoutStudio... hmm what else ? lol

edit2: ok I guess Skawo gave us Another and 2 Specials...

[Tempus]

I could tell Treeki directly, but I’m posting it here for discussion’s sake.

I’m a big fan of self moderating systems. Youtube’s system, for example, removes comment from being visible when they receive a certain amount of dislikes and pushes them to the top if they are one of the most liked comments. Reddit does something similar, with a rolling system of upvotes/downvotes which is partially preserved in the form of user karma. I don’t see why a similar system couldn’t be applied to the depot/forums. Members who garner large amounts of upvotes on forums posts or depot posts could even be given more weight to their own votes, in a sort of reciprocal respect system. Other similar features could be things like pushing well respected users new contributions to positions of prominence on the page, and users who are frequently downvoted could have negative bias pushed against them. You could take this even further by allowing the system to apply limited moderation powers in a tiered system on top of the priority systems above, such as giving very very highly respected people the ability to move posts, or even edit them (though edits would be colourized or otherwise distinguished). You can escalate this as much as you want, really, and balance bloat by adding a natural decay for inactivity over time to a threshold.

Downsides to self-moderating and administering systems are that strict user management yields better results, since inflation of rank provides incentive for creating multiple false accounts to boost a single into a position of prominence. This is naturally countered by a growing user base - the more people that use the system regularly, the harder it becomes to defraud. It can also be balance by a need for accumulation over time. Anyone willing to spend a period of months before acquiring moderator powers must be at least dedicated, intelligent, consistent, and highly interested and invested in the community, even if they are doing it by fraud. While the latter doesn’t limit potential gains for the offender, it does limit potential damage they could cause by allowing only those with the incentive and qualities to avoid widespread damage into positions of significance.

The advantage to a hands off approach also allows for a very flexible and vibrant community over time, with no need for dramatic changes of the guard. Since such a system is based on public opinion, those in power are those who the community in general believe are most suited to it, and as of such if they abuse the power, people have no one to blame but themselves.


tl:dr;

I advocate a system designed to automatically balance itself, it’s content, and it’s moderators by cross-referencing their exposure, positions, and powers against expressed popular opinion over time, with a minimal number of safety systems in place to ensure smooth operation of the system.

[Tempus]

The other option I advocate is not doing anything but appointing some new mods. Either change it drastically so it works better, or change it enough so that it works at all. Don’t spend a gajillion hours doing work to make a very similar website except a little cleaner and with different software. Nothing is going to get better by just shaking out a bit of dust so you can ignore it again.

[Mareep]

I like the first option, I also am 100% supportive of a like/dislike system too.
I would go into detail about many other things but, I'm sure whatever happens it will be for the best.

[Mr.yakobo]

And if we do move over to a different forum system, I'd like to integrate the Depot into the forum instead of having it as a totally different site with a different layout and style and so on.

This is a really good idea. Having the Depot on a whole different 'site' is somewhat annoying, as you then have to leave the forums for a sec, if you know what I mean.

Skawo on the other hand...

You got something against Shawo, Jason
Why complain so much about his anger? lol

----

Myself I really would like to have something in the middle of opinion 2 and 3.
I would really like a mashup of the forums, but at the same time, it would be horrible if all work I've made at RVlution would be completely gone. The best solution would be if you take number 3, and contact all members via. PM that the site is going to shut down within twenty days or so. Then everyone would have plenty of time to backup their most importent work.

I think the new site would be named something similar to what it is now, so it doesn't get a new name. If a new name is made, contact us guys on RVlution about the new URL.

Keep up the great job, and pick the best solution
Make it a revolution

[JasonP27]

You got something against Shawo, Jason
Why complain so much about his anger? lol

It's not really complaining as much as it is poking fun at. I find his comments hilarious sometimes. Although admittedly it's not so funny when it's directed towards me.

Also, thanks the another mispelling of Skawo for my sig

[Ninjifox]

Were I to go ahead with switching the board over to new software, it would keep the same URL (rvlution.net) and the old site would definitely be archived. No worries about needing 20 days to archive your stuff or anything, it'll all be kept around indefinitely on an archive. I'll also make old links automatically redirect to the archive, and add a notice in its header saying that it is no longer used.


@Shane2100AD - I'll have to check out SMF later. I wasn't a huge fan of it when I last tried it, but it's been years... One thing that's a pretty large concern for me is how easy it is to mod/theme, and that's something I've never tried with it.

@JasonP27 - I didn't make Riivolution or Puzzle. You can blame thank Aaron and tueidj for the former, and Tempus for the latter :p

You can view content by user on the current Depot if you click on their username on it. Here's my profile, for example: https://rvlution.net/nsmbw/index.php?showuser=56 - This should really be integrated into the forums, though. It's just that phpBB is so ridiculously convoluted that I never even bothered trying

As for staff not submitting anything, Scevo (FOR YOUR SIG, JASON!) has uploaded a couple of levels, I've uploaded one... not a whole lot, I'll give you that, but it's something. There's also quite a bit of quality stuff by other people; Red Shifter and Islishe come to mind, it's just that it gets drowned out VERY easily.

@Tempus - Okay, you can write the algorithm :p

I don't think RVLution is such a huge site that it needs self-moderation, personally... I think a flagging system and proper moderation alone would be able to take care of weeding out trash.



Either way, I'm really glad to see that this thread has generated some intelligent discourse! I had started to worry that all life on RVLution had been taken over by clones of Mariopoo and "when will newer be released it will definitely be released in 2012 i know it"...

[Aaron]

Another point I'd like to get some discussion on while we're at it is the site's overall image. The front page hasn't been touched in years and it's looking dead. To the casual visitor there's no indication of any activity at all unless you happen to land on the forums, where it still looks dead if you look anywhere but the NSMBW section. We need to look into a reworking of what the site represents from landing, perhaps a portal or something showcasing community content from various sources (a feed of the latest popular/featured depot entries, news, posts, etc?). It can either be spun as rvlution being a pure user content portal (for minimal maintenance effort), or present rvlution as a content creator with a front page more like an actual updated news blog about our official projects with emphasis on community content as well - perhaps with frequent featured/user-submitted front page posts to fill in the gaps (maybe use one of those per-user-blog systems if one exists that doesn't suck, encourage people to write in them frequently about their latest levels, hacks, tilesets, etc, and hire some moderators/editors to pick the best to feature at certain intervals).

Whatever happens we want the site to promote an image of activity and community, and seem like something a bit more than just a boring old forum plus an inactive news page and wiki. It'd also be a good opportunity to go through with a visual redesign - the site's looking a bit stale as it is right now.

[Ninjifox]

Oh yeah, that's another thing I had been considering bringing up, but I forgot it when I was writing this thread >_>

That brings the number of totally disparate sections on RVLution up to four. Front page portal, forums, depot and wiki. The wiki hasn't been touched in years and the portal is similarly desolate...

I'm unsure about what to do with the wiki- my idea was to just leave it as it is for now, and link to it from the main site's navigation bar.


As for the portal... that's another thing I've been planning on revamping, and if we do switch board software, it would end up under the same banner as the rest so to speak. A nice homepage with actual news posts and feeds of new posts/levels/etc. Kind of the same thing you suggested :p

User-submitted posts is a neat idea for that. To make this less complex to code, I think I'd also take the "forum threads from a News board displayed on the portal" route, like the current one - just that content would be done right - instead of putting together a whole new system for storing news.

[JasonP27]

Sorry Aaron and Tempus I knew you were the main coders of Riivolution and Puzzle respectively. I simply meant that I thought Treeki had some hand in them being made or something...

So what came first? Riivolution? Reggie!? Was Riivolution created because of Reggie! or would it have been made anyhow?

Scevo (FOR YOUR SIG, JASON!)

It doesn't count if it's on purpose

[Ninjifox]

Riivolution was a project that Aaron and tueidj had already been working on. However, the Reggie developers helped with testing it (and had access to very early builds) and it was released alongside Reggie and RVLution.

Reminds me... it's really confusing that the app and site have such similar names
Not much we can do at this point though

[JasonP27]

Reminds me... it's really confusing that the app and site have such similar names
Not much we can do at this point though

I always wondered about the name choice for the site, if it was purposely connected to Riivolution or if there was some other meaning to it. Are you saying they weren't named similarly on purpose? If so, how did you come up with the name of the site?

[nekholm]

As for forum moderation, I'm old and cranky, so I'd make a great mod.

[Ninjifox]

As far as I know both names came up separately. I joined RVLution shortly after it had started and a name had been chosen, but quite a while before it was opened to the public. (See that my registration date is the 1st December 2009?)

My memory is awful. I tried to look up the history in my IRC logs - at least, the parts I DID hear about, I don't know about where the name came from or anything - but the ones I have on my bouncer don't go back long enough, and my older logs are on my computer at home.

[max31]

If you make this, this is because Newer will be released soon ?

[max31]

-DELETED BECAUSE OFF-TOPIC-
(Please mods, delete really that because off-topic)